Fullrangedriver Forum

A place to hang out in the single fullrange driver community

You are not logged in.

#1 2006-04-25 10:12:19

Zero One
Member
Registered: 2006-03-27

Stereo Imaging with Full Range Drivers

I have been having great fun learning the ins and outs of fullrange drivers via my cheapo Redbacks system and more importantly the great input from everone on this forum.

Today I rearranged my loungeroom and have the speakers much better placed for good sound reproduction, they actually sound vastly better, no surprise there though the room was just the pits as it was, anyhow it got me thinking about a few issues relating to stereo imaging in general.

So I have a few Qs

The redbacks being on 4 inches are obviously pretty much as point source as it gets and the ability to actually place instruments on the sound stage is amazing, far far batter than anything else I have heard, but it is a very precise thing, if I move a little left or right or forward the difference is staggering, I'm not complaining, I'm happy to sit in one spot to listen but why is this so and how can say 2 speakers of the same dimensions give different results in regard to this?

Next thing, and I don't think this is my imagination but the sound stage is not only horizontal to the plane between the speaker drivers but above and below that level as well, I would not have thought that possible, is it or am I just deluded.  There does also seem to be a  strong depth thing happening, but I have heard this before with my previous systems.

Finally I have heard some reviewers claim the sound stage extends beyond the speakers, in other words beyond the 6 or 8 feet wide gap between the speakers, how could this actually be acheived, other than using side wall reflections or is that really what happens, I haven't got that one happening.

I must say the great imaging is very impressive, it really sells me on the fullrange course, makes me wonder why we have gone down the complex path of multple drivers and all that entails. I was hoping to control my urge to build Rons horns for a couple months or more, but I can see me giving in early, which probably won't impress my wife too much, is there any one on this site who offers marriage counselling for audio addicted husbands. No actually she is very patient and wonderful wife, but she might spit the dummy one day if I can't control this habit.

Well thats it and thanks in advance.
Brad.

Offline

#2 2006-04-25 11:03:36

ghpicard
Member
From: Argentina
Registered: 2005-07-28

Re: Stereo Imaging with Full Range Drivers

Follow my opinions. FWIW, I have my flame suit already put smile

Zero One wrote:

The redbacks being on 4 inches are obviously pretty much as point source as it gets and the ability to actually place instruments on the sound stage is amazing, far far batter than anything else I have heard, but it is a very precise thing, if I move a little left or right or forward the difference is staggering, I'm not complaining, I'm happy to sit in one spot to listen but why is this so and how can say 2 speakers of the same dimensions give different results in regard to this?

That's called the "sweet spot", and the differences are due to different radiation characteristics of each particular driver. Unfortunately not many driver manufacturers provide polar SPL diagrams, as microphone manufacturers do.

Zero One wrote:

Next thing, and I don't think this is my imagination but the sound stage is not only horizontal to the plane between the speaker drivers but above and below that level as well, I would not have thought that possible, is it or am I just deluded.  There does also seem to be a  strong depth thing happening, but I have heard this before with my previous systems.

If the record is "live", and I mean with a microphone arangement from a live event (i.e. full orchestra, jazz session, whatever not separately recorded in different rooms/ocasions and then post-mixed and processes) that is a natural thing to happen as your brains reconstructs the "original" location of the sound from the subtle phase changes and reverbs that come together in the recording. This is one of the disputed reasons why vinyl records from 100% analog equipment in the recording chain seem to be "liver" than CD ones. And I talk of good samples of both media.

Zero One wrote:

Finally I have heard some reviewers claim the sound stage extends beyond the speakers, in other words beyond the 6 or 8 feet wide gap between the speakers, how could this actually be acheived, other than using side wall reflections or is that really what happens, I haven't got that one happening.

Ditto upper paragraph... It also depends on your setup too, but a crappy recording won't do any good to imaging and soundscape. In my setup, that's a rather bad one due to space restrictions and WAF, if I close my eyes, I can feel sounds coming from several feet to the sides of the FE108EZ sidefiring horns. That is mostly noticeable with full orchestra ensembles and also with some Vangelis ones. Blade Runner's main theme, Mutiny of the Bounty end titles being my favourites to this respect. There are ones that I can't locate in my memory where I heard some sounds coming from behind me, like if someone is sitting behind me. Spooky...

Zero One wrote:

I was hoping to control my urge to build Rons horns for a couple months or more, but I can see me giving in early, which probably won't impress my wife too much, is there any one on this site who offers marriage counselling for audio addicted husbands.

That's really a good business opportunity... somewhere in James site I read that a good counterattack is to tell the wife that speaker building is better than running after waitresses...
But if I dare to use that I think I'll do way worse... LOL

Gastón

Offline

#3 2006-04-25 12:19:24

erickson
Member
Registered: 2005-08-02

Re: Stereo Imaging with Full Range Drivers

Zero One wrote:

The redbacks being on 4 inches are obviously pretty much as point source as it gets and the ability to actually place instruments on the sound stage is amazing, far far batter than anything else I have heard, but it is a very precise thing, if I move a little left or right or forward the difference is staggering, I'm not complaining, I'm happy to sit in one spot to listen but why is this so and how can say 2 speakers of the same dimensions give different results in regard to this?

This is a consequence of beaming.  Higher frequencies are more directional than lower frequencies, even with a 4-inch driver.

If your speakers are pointed straight ahead, or just slightly toed in, then proximity effect and beaming conspire with each other.  That is, if you move to one side, not only are you closer to that speaker, you are also listening more on-axis to that speaker, and more off-axis to the far speaker.

The trick is to "cross-toe" the speakers, that is, toe them in such that their axes cross in front of the listening position.  In this situation, proximity effect and beaming actually counteract each other.  That is, if you move to one side, you are closer to one speaker, but more on-axis with the other speaker.

Visually, it's a bit counterintuitive because it seems as if the stereo image would completely shrink.  In fact just the opposite is true.

Give it a try.

http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/basics.html
http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/faq.html

Offline

#4 2006-04-25 19:52:08

Zero One
Member
Registered: 2006-03-27

Re: Stereo Imaging with Full Range Drivers

Very helpful and thankyou to both of you, I will make some subtle adjustments and see what happens.

The music I was listening to was mainly live jazz recordiings on DVD-A so I guess that should be a good test of these issues.

Its a very interesting exercise playing with placement and room layouts, I always felt it had a strong impact but in fact it seems the difference afforded (with theses full range drivers at least) is much greater than just the difference between say different speakers of similar construction, makes you wonder how many folk out there are only getting a $100.00 sound out $1000.00 speakers due to poor layout and placement.

I think I need to look at the other issues within the room itself, there's probably some hidden quality there too.

Offline

#5 2006-04-27 02:38:19

footstony
Member
Registered: 2005-09-29

Re: Stereo Imaging with Full Range Drivers

Hi Zero One,

Are you in Australia?  I am in Melbourne.  I have some 4" Redbacks with no whizzer cone. They look like black FE103's.

Is this the one you like?

http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?a … m&id=C0626

95dB is an amazing claim for a 4" speaker.

I hope you don't mind me hijacking this thread.

For casual listening, (doing jobs at home or at work) I enjoy listening to one speaker in mono. placement is so much easier. The true single driver system!
With the majority of stereo systems the listening position is limited.  I still haven't worked out the stereo imaging thing.  I do know that I like the speaker baffle to be larger rather than small or narrow. More slam

Regards Philip

Offline

#6 2006-04-27 04:42:26

Zero One
Member
Registered: 2006-03-27

Re: Stereo Imaging with Full Range Drivers

Hi Phillip
Yep I'm from OZ, I live in Goulburn NSW and no problem with the hijack.

I have both of the 4 inch drivers and have found the one without the whizzer to be the better one, though the high treble is probably a bit  clearer with the whizzer.  Out of the box so to speak the drivers sound OK but the real magic comes via a few modifications and the right box design.

I built the redback system as an experiment, it just turned out far better than I anticipated and I am still tinkering, and they are going to my daughter in a few weeks.

They claim 92 db for the non whizzer version and 95 for the whizzer one, however in real world use it seems to be the other way around, no matter what they are, compared to all the other speakers I have here they really are very efficient.

I am using them in conjunction with the Altronics bass boost kit (which is a true bargain) and an LM1875 powered gainclone. 

I know it all sounds like it shouldn't sound much but trust when I say these absolutely kill my B&W 602S3s I'm dead serious and that hurts as a paid over $1100.00  for the B&Ws and these cost a total of about $45.00 for the lot. Note: I have trade disc for the drivers so they're a bit cheaper and I had some left over boxes I modified with bitsof MDF I had.

I got a great compliment on the setup yesterday as I had a businsess client who knows a fair bit about his audio came around for a listen, on hearing it (and he knew nothing about what I was running beforehand) he looked at me and said that sounds like a great valve based system and how much did those drivers cost! We had a great old chin-wag and he went off muttering something about thinking of ways to get a new sound system. It's one thing when you think things sound pretty good but its a real buzz when others tell you so and so far the Redback have a 100% strike rate.

If your interested in trying some out send me your email address and I'll send some pics and contruction details.

Offline

#7 2006-04-27 09:36:39

tube9
Member
Registered: 2006-02-03

Re: Stereo Imaging with Full Range Drivers

Zero One wrote:

Hi Phillip
Yep I'm from OZ, I live in Goulburn NSW and no problem with the hijack.

I have both of the 4 inch drivers and have found the one without the whizzer to be the better one, though the high treble is probably a bit  clearer with the whizzer.  Out of the box so to speak the drivers sound OK but the real magic comes via a few modifications and the right box design.

I built the redback system as an experiment, it just turned out far better than I anticipated and I am still tinkering, and they are going to my daughter in a few weeks.

They claim 92 db for the non whizzer version and 95 for the whizzer one, however in real world use it seems to be the other way around, no matter what they are, compared to all the other speakers I have here they really are very efficient.

I am using them in conjunction with the Altronics bass boost kit (which is a true bargain) and an LM1875 powered gainclone. 

I know it all sounds like it shouldn't sound much but trust when I say these absolutely kill my B&W 602S3s I'm dead serious and that hurts as a paid over $1100.00  for the B&Ws and these cost a total of about $45.00 for the lot. Note: I have trade disc for the drivers so they're a bit cheaper and I had some left over boxes I modified with bitsof MDF I had.

I got a great compliment on the setup yesterday as I had a businsess client who knows a fair bit about his audio came around for a listen, on hearing it (and he knew nothing about what I was running beforehand) he looked at me and said that sounds like a great valve based system and how much did those drivers cost! We had a great old chin-wag and he went off muttering something about thinking of ways to get a new sound system. It's one thing when you think things sound pretty good but its a real buzz when others tell you so and so far the Redback have a 100% strike rate.

If your interested in trying some out send me your email address and I'll send some pics and contruction details.

Hi were can I get this driver at? I live in the usa. They are the right fit to replace some old advets that are blown.Thanks jm

Offline

#8 2006-04-27 19:36:47

footstony
Member
Registered: 2005-09-29

Re: Stereo Imaging with Full Range Drivers

Hi again Zero One.

I have just fired up my own old LM1875 amp and I will definately try those redbacks again now.
I would be very interested in the construction details for the redbacks but I don't have your email address.  My email is footstony AT yahoo.com

Hi Jim,

Altronics website here: http://www.altronics.com.au/
Not sure if they deliver to the US

Regards Philip

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB