Fullrangedriver Forum

Morse · 2010-07-27 08:21:56

Hi everyone;

Just wanted to crow a little about some stellar luck yesterday and ask a question. First, I dropped by the local Tokyu Hands and bought up the very last FE87E they had, which gives me 5 drivers - just enough for the "5" in a "5.1" DIY HT. Originally I bought 4 of the little guys a few years back, planning on an "over/under" 2 channel array approach, but lately I have been thinking that 5.1 might be something to try my hand at. Then I found out that Fostex had dropped the FE87E from the lineup. DOH!

Anyway, what other drivers voice well with the FE87E for subwoofer duty? Also, should I consider pairing the front drivers off even so for a 3.1? Maybe pick up a pair of FE83E's stateside for the rear channels to flesh out the 5.1? I have read that the front channels handle the most demanding material. I'm a novice at the HT sound thing, so anyone writing from experience is most welcome. Ideas are requested, and advice is appreciated.

Thanks in advance and all the best,
Ja, mata.
Morse

Pit Hinder · 2010-08-03 09:54:52

Morse old chap - long time no see, where have you been hiding? (And who with - is she a real blonde?)

As to "which drivers"...hmmmm. I don´t need a 5.1, can´t afford or place one anyway, so just some musings without any real idea behind it.

# You seem to still have ears for music or you wouldn´t want to use something as good as a Fostex 8x. If you want to keep it singing, you need to Xover the front boxes rather lowish and sharpish, so use anything halfway decent - no need for bass/mid drivers that go stratosperically high.

# The sub - a different kettle of fish. The few good HT systems I´ve heard always had a sub like a big block V8 driven in town - you don´t use all the power, but it lets you know there is as much as you´ll ever need. A B**e 2x6" ain´t a sub, it´s a laugh.

# Fleshing up the rears - money out of the window. After the first hooray effect has paled you´ll find yourself turning the rears´ volume lower and lower. You´re not 18 anymore, ole boy, so you´ll want quality rather than "now, is THAT loud - watch this"

Just musings.

Pit

Innerconflict · 2010-08-03 18:43:32

https://www.madisound.com/store/product … 536d422ecf

https://www.madisound.com/store/manuals … 536d422ecf

How big is the room in which this will be set up ?

IMO, unless the room is pretty small (bedroom?) , then you are wasting your time with such small , inneficient drivers for HT use.

If it is to be used in a small room, go for the 5.1 with the drivers you have , set the receiver so all the drivers are "Small" (limits the bass response so they don't exhibit over excursion) , and get a "sub" that is NOT a commercially available "sub" driver.

What I mean by this is get a pair of 8"-12" drivers (depending on room size) that are lower mass than the typical shit dumped on us as "subwoofers" . Look for a driver that has good bandwidth , low mass , and reasonable Xmax. This will give the best bass response, if not the most bass output.

Considering what you are using for mains/surrounds , the sub should very easily be able to keep up with the output of the rest of the system if you follow those guidelines and buy something of decent quality. The upside is, the bass won't sound disjointed , or "heavy/slow" compared to the rest of the sound/music.

Look at Peerless , Vifa , Morel , and Seas drivers.

Just my two cents.................................Blake

Last edited by Innerconflict (2010-08-03 18:45:00)

Pit Hinder · 2010-08-03 22:24:07

Blake,

"Look at Peerless , Vifa , Morel , and Seas drivers."

You are talking quality - but with the $/€ exchange rate gone hogwild, are they affordable over at your place?

Innerconflict · 2010-08-03 22:53:20

8" driver

https://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/p21wo20-08.pdf

https://www.madisound.com/store/product … ts_id=1111

Excellent build quality, only negative I can see is Xmax. Cast Frames, LOW moving mass , good size VC , Low Qms and correspondingly low impedence peak at resonance. Pretty good compromise between cost and quality. A pair in a small room would be sweet.

If you want more output than an 8" can offer . . .

10"

https://www.madisound.com/store/product … ts_id=1705

https://www.madisound.com/store/manuals … 830668.pdf

or

https://www.madisound.com/store/product … cts_id=222

https://www.madisound.com/store/manuals … assbox.pdf

12"

https://www.madisound.com/store/product … cts_id=223

Most of the 10"s and 12"s are more costly, over $100 ea.

I was looking only at the Madisound website, and trying to keep the cost as low as reasonably possible with quality in mind.

.........................Blake

Last edited by Innerconflict (2010-08-03 23:07:02)

Innerconflict · 2010-08-03 23:30:26

These are some other contenders :

8"

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/296-616.pdf

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet … er=296-616

or

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet … er=297-445

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/297-445.pdf

10"

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-368s.pdf

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowde … tab=1#Tabs

or

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-334s.pdf

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet … er=295-334

..........................Blake

ronbrady · 2010-08-04 11:43:04

Hi Morse
Looks like the guys have given you some good choices for subwoofer duty. I thought you might be interested in something I have recently realized about subwoofers. Small, high x-max drivers tend to produce sub frequencies with a great deal of effort and tend to sound somewhat slow or muddled. To my ear they lack for high fidelity. On the other hand a large subwoofer, 12", 15", 18", with low x-max and a low Qts motor are capable of very fast, high fidelity sub frequencies and would be my first choice for a home built sub. Your fostex drivers are probably quite fast and you would really want to cross over to a fast subwoofer for your 5.1. If you room is fairly small then I think that a 12" would be about right. For a larger room I would consider the 15" or 18". Too much x-max can make a sub sound poor. The trick to high fidelity sub frequencies is to have lots of surface area with the minimum of excursion to launch the cleanest wavefront into the room. Also, in my opinion, sealed subwoofer enclosures sound cleaner than vented sub enclosures. Vented sub give more rumble and slam for movie soundtracks but sound a bit sloppy for Hi Fi.
Thats my 2 cents on the subject.
Have fun with your 5.1 build.
Ron Brady

Innerconflict · 2010-08-04 19:19:39

Good call , Ron ! My sentiments exactly.

Only reason why I posted 8"s (although if you notice, I specified using a pair of them) is due to room size . Also, the FE87's are only 3 inch drivers and about 88 db or so . I figured on trying to keep the spl and dynamic capabilities the same.

Morse,

Will this be for home theatre use, or 5.1 music, or both ?

Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

If you look through the woofers I linked to, I'm sure there are a few that have high BL , low moving mass , and reasonable excursion.

..........................Blake

Last edited by Innerconflict (2010-08-04 19:41:13)

Innerconflict · 2010-08-04 19:47:38

After looking through these again, my vote goes for these
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-368s.pdf
in a sealed cab of about 1.25-1.5 cu.ft. per driver (use two for best effect) , and stuff them with R-11 . Use literally two pounds per cubic foot , so 2.5-3 lbs of R-11 per cabinet/driver.

You will end up with a Qcb of about .6 , and an F3 in the 45 hz area. Add in: room loading, any series resistance , any amp EQ , and now we're talking some serious extension with VERY clean sound.

These drivers are 10" , aluminum cone, have a good BL , low impedence peak at resonance (which will be about half what is on the graph after stuffing the cabs with glass) , and have a low moving mass of only 40 grams.

Lets sum it up.

Good extension in-room .

Light weight , stiff cone.

Good BL (motor strength)

Impedence peak at resonance will be in the neighborhood of 12 ohms or so, thus giving a very linear/smooth load for the amplifier .

Decent Xmax 0f 6.6mm

Aluminum cone acts as heat sink for motor assembly.

Cast frame

..........................Blake

Last edited by Innerconflict (2010-08-05 00:35:16)

Pit Hinder · 2010-08-04 21:54:07

Ron,

truer words are rarely spoken. Talking motors it´s gospel that nothing beats cu.in. except more cu.in. - and when we´re talking about punch without noise, sq.in. instead of screaming xmax are the thing.
Sealed cab, lowish Qtc instead of "wow, that booms" soupwoofers - and make the cabinet as stiff as something very stiff on national stiffness day.

OK - as post in a forum it´s just €.02, in the livingroom it´s more fun.

Pit

Morse · 2010-08-05 10:07:13

Hi everyone - thanks for the thoughts!

The monitors are supposed to be for a tiny size office or very small room, so I wasn't too concerned about max spl issues; just wanted something that will generate a super clean soundfield. One thought I keep toying with is to use a pair of FE87's up front with a solo FE87 for the centre (haven't been ablt to find any more of 'em darnit!) and a set of FE83's in back (again, considering sacrificing the rear channel for a 3.1). Over/under with small drivers has worked well in my experience, FWIW. That, and I have seen/heard a ton of really nicely done systems like that in Japan, so I wanted to try my hand at something similar - but my own.

Frankly I would like to use it for both video and music, so the FE87 seemed a good choice (except for the low end, naturally!).

Ron, we are in synch with the ideas of driver speed. That's the main reason I wrote. The FE87 is such a musical little driver that I would hate to spoil the effect with some sloppy boom box for the low end. Pity I sold my old 4 cubic foot sealed boxes with Radio Shack paper cone 15" drivers more years ago than I want to admit...maybe they would have been just the ticket, at least for a starting point. Maybe something like that, only with a 10-12" small excursion paper cone?

Hi Pit! >>>...where have you been hiding?....< Mostly I have been kept away from DIY by a bit too much of the overwork stateside. The good thing is that I was able to take the summer off and do some "de-stressing" in Japan with family. As I type this I am getting set to get up early for the memorial in Hiroshima tomorrow...which is why I have to cut this a little short, sorry! 6am shows up entirely too early, and it is already 11pm here....

So what has everyone else been up to? Sorry but I really did lose touch with too much work and no play!

All the best,
Morse

Pit Hinder · 2010-08-06 09:34:45

Morse San,

"very small room" - steal as many ideas as you can whilst in Japan. The art of making every sq.ft. feel like a sq.m. is a very Japanese art.

Fullrangedriver Forum

#1 2010-07-27 08:21:56

What voices well with FE87E?

#2 2010-08-03 09:54:52

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

#3 2010-08-03 18:43:32

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

#4 2010-08-03 22:24:07

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

#5 2010-08-03 22:53:20

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

#6 2010-08-03 23:30:26

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

#7 2010-08-04 11:43:04

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

#8 2010-08-04 19:19:39

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

#9 2010-08-04 19:47:38

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

#10 2010-08-04 21:54:07

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

#11 2010-08-05 10:07:13

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

#12 2010-08-06 09:34:45

Re: What voices well with FE87E?

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